At Liberty Podcast
The cover of "Loud" a book by Drew Afualo
At Liberty Podcast

Drew Afualo Wants You to Be Meaner To Misogynists

May 16, 2024

TikTok.

<p>[00:00:29] <b>DREW AFUALO:</b> Y'all, hold on. Wait, wait, wait, wait. This is not a joke. It's just hilarious.</p> <p>I have come to the official consensus that every man who openly and unabashedly hates women, they are officially gone.</p> <p>[00:00:54] <b>KENDALL:</b> Drew Afualo is one of today's most popular feminist content creators. Her no BS approach to roasting misogynistic men on the internet has been met with folks flocking to her social pages to feel seen, heard, and to rally around squelching hate, bigotry, and misogyny. Her mission to stand up for the most marginalized among us, is why she's one of Time Magazine's Next Generation Leaders.</p> <p>But that's not all. This March, the Coalition of Asian Pacifics and Entertainment honored Drew with the Tastemaker Award. She's a content creator, women's rights activist, podcaster, and soon to be author of the book "LOUD: Accept Nothing Less Than the Life You Deserve." Drew joins us today to share her journey to TikTok, her Samoan identity and the way her comedy and culture have built a meaningful community online primed, not just for likes, but for action.</p> <p>Simply put: Drew is using her voice and in the process, helping all of us find our own. Drew, welcome to At Liberty and thank you so much for joining me.</p> <p>[00:01:59] <b>DREW:</b> Thank you so much for having me. What a stellar intro. So awesome.</p> <p>[00:02:05] <b>KENDALL:</b> A stellar intro for a stellar person. I feel like we had to meet the moment here, Drew.</p> <p>[00:02:10] <b>DREW: </b>Thank you.</p> <p>[00:02:12] <b>KENDALL: </b>We're so happy to have you. I know that you've had a busy past three years since you first posted your most viral first TikTok.</p> <p>[00:02:21] <b>DREW: </b>Yeah.</p> <p>[00:02:21] <b>KENDALL: </b>Before you were on TikTok though, you worked at the NFL. That's the National Football League in case sports aren’t the audience’s thing.</p> <p>[00:02:29] <b>DREW: </b>Yeah.</p> <p>[00:02:30] <b>KENDALL: </b>The NFL is an American enterprise that is still heralded as a beacon of masculinity in many ways, and sometimes it can be problematic. I'm wondering what being in that environment taught you, if anything, and if you believe it's informed your mission on TikTok or your approach to how you produce your content in any way?</p> <p>[00:02:51] <b>DREW:</b> Yeah, I mean, you know, I worked in sports all throughout college because I'm a journalism communications student. So I graduated with two degrees and my emphasis was in sports journalism. That was like my entire Rolodex of clips and my reel was all sports related, you know, journalism. And for me personally, when I was pursuing it, I cared more about the lifestyle aspect. I cared more about the players as people more so than I did about them as athletes. I just feel like, you know, everyone—anyone can memorize stats and learn a lot about sports.</p> <p>But for me, I—what I loved the most was getting to follow them and profile them. That was like my favorite part. So, you know, I did work in sports for a long time. So obviously I encountered so much misogyny and racism. It's not even funny. I did it—as far as like, the attitude towards women in sports or just women in male dominated fields in general, I had kind of already built up my armor by the time I got to the NFL. So it really wasn't, it wasn't anything new to me, the experience there. I think what it did really was it solidified the belief that I had that if I really wanted to like find my purpose, this wasn't it. I thought my purpose was going to be talking about sports, or being like, you know, the first female Samoan sideline reporter, like, I thought maybe that's what it was going to be. I just steady the course, like, whatever plan I set for myself 10 years ago, that's the plan I follow, unless something awful happens to me. So, that's what happened to me. Got thrown off that path pretty aggressively, took my hint, and so then I decided to start making content. And so, you know, I think, if anything, it just kind of strengthened my conviction that this wasn't it. Like, this was not the path I'm supposed to be on. I need to find the actual path I'm supposed to be on. And thankfully I did. So that was my Saturn return. Period. For all my astrology girls. So, like, that was my sound of return. It was awful. So, yeah.</p> <p>[00:05:01] <b>KENDALL:</b> No, that makes a lot of sense. I think, like, when—it's sometimes opportunities are just there for us to understand that we don't want them.</p> <p>[00:05:10] <b>DREW:</b> Totally. Totally.</p> <p>[00:05:10] <b>KENDALL:</b> And that we want something different. And it sounds like the, perhaps, misfortune of losing your job just opened up opportunity for you to spend your time elsewhere.</p> <p>[00:05:23] <b>DREW:</b> Absolutely.</p> <p>[00:05:24] <b>KENDALL:</b> So, your TikTok videos are very clearly you, you bring this brand and vision that can really only be attributed to you.</p> <p>Your laugh is infectious, your roasts are witty, and your videos largely serve to call out this kind of misogyny on the internet, namely when men hurl insults at women for their appearance. And this is a very specific brand of comedy. Roasting is one of the various mechanisms to be funny. Why do you think roasts are so effective at addressing these kinds of insults from men online?</p> <p>[00:06:03] <b>DREW:</b> Yeah, I mean, I think the—this is like a little kind of sneaky peeky, but in the beginning of my book, I put a quote from Nelson Mandela, which is like, if you speak to a man in a language, he doesn't understand, he doesn't like, listen, like nothing changes, right? Is the essence of the quote. And so I firmly believe that men who draw power from doing things like that to women, or any marginalized group for that matter, do not learn anything when you try to like, have a intellectual conversation with them because clearly they don't care about that because they're not smart enough to have that kind of conversation with them.</p> <p>And I think when speaking to your oppressor, you have to speak to them in a language they understand. A lot of times it's violence, whether that's verbally, emotionally, physically, whatever speaks to their spirit. When it comes to TikTok videos, the only thing they'll listen to is insults. So that's the only thing that makes them stop. When making content like that like I do, my goal is not to change them. It's not to make them better people because last time I checked, they didn't come out of my coochie. So that's not my responsibility. My goal is to make them stop, delete the video, feel bad about themselves, and run and hide in that cave they clearly climbed out of. So that's always been my goal. My goal is to uplift and empower the people that they so frivolously attack. My goal is not to take care of them.</p> <p>So I think the reason why it's so effective is because most of the time, like most of the men that I stitch notoriously over the last three years have been cis, straight, white men and men like that have gone through their entire lives unchecked. They have no oppressions on them whatsoever. So they, all they know is, is a carefree, awesome life. This is the first time they've been checked clearly, because every time I do it, they're like, “how could you do this to me? How could you do this to me?” That's so, like, the way that they almost immediately forget all of the awful things they just said to either myself or somebody else, once I attack them.</p> <p>And even when, even when I wrote an op-ed for the LA Times, in it I wrote, like, how quickly men develop empathy when they see men just like them getting kicked down the way that they so frivolously kick others. Like, and that's me. So I like to think of myself as like a tangible consequence. Like, if you—if you've never had to answer for the consequences to your actions, don't get on TikTok. Save yourself. Don't get on there. And if you do, block me immediately because I will find you. Eventually, you will make it to my desk and it's in your best interest, especially if you have no accountability whatsoever. It's in your best interest that we do not cross paths. It's not going to work out for you.</p> <p>[00:08:49] <b>KENDALL:</b> So, when people say, oh, okay, well that, “that's mean,” or “you shouldn't fight fire with fire, two wrongs don't make a right,” how do you respond to that kind of criticism?</p> <p>[00:09:02] <b>DREW:</b> Well, as of Virgo, literally speaking, you can fight fire with fire. Ask any forest fire. As a Virgo, I have to be right. So first of all, yes, you can. They're called controlled burns. Ever heard of those? They literally go, when there's forest fires, they'll go ahead and they'll burn everything else so it has nowhere to go. That's me, babe. I'm burning the forest so that you have nowhere to go. And then last, whether or not it's mean, you're right, it is mean. It is, it's extremely mean. It's actually intentionally mean, and I think that's the misconception about people who have a moral dilemma with what it is I choose to do, how I choose to handle bigotry, how I choose to handle disrespect. They'll say things like, oh, that's just so mean. You're right. It is. I am very mean. Lots of people can be mean. That's not a trait that's exclusive to me. In fact, he was extremely mean. He was so mean to me before I chimed in. And for some reason, you only have a problem when I do it. Why is that? Maybe you should unpack why you feel that way. Maybe you should unpack why you care more about how victims handle oppression than the actual oppression itself. Maybe that's more indicative of you, girl.</p> <p>But I always tell people, what's wrong with being mean to people who are awful? I don't think there's anything wrong with that. In fact, I encourage you to be meaner to be honest. I don't think women and other marginalized people are mean enough to be real. So I always tell people like, I kind of compare myself to like Robin Hood, like I'm taking from the rich giving back to the poor. Yeah, I'm stealing, but for a good reason. So yeah, I am bullying someone, but he's awful. You would think at this point that people would know how mean I can be and would stop, you would think, right? But nothing's gonna make them stop unless everybody starts holding that attitude that we deserve the love and respect that we so freely give to them. Like that is something we should expect of them the same way that they expect it from us.</p> <p>[00:11:00] <b>KENDALL:</b> I love what you say about policing folks, like marginalized folks' response to oppression. I think that that's a very, very common experience when folks who are marginalized protest, speak up, use their voice to rally against oppression. It's most oftentimes met with a lot of critique. And so I, I hear you, Drew, I really do hear you.</p> <p>I wonder if you think that these comments from men only come in the forum of the internet? Like, do you think it's more than an internet thing? You know, if it is more than an internet thing, why do you think, despite all the other advancements in gender equality, that we're still dealing with these kind of misogynistic insults, specifically really targeting women and non-binary folks' appearance?</p> <p>[00:11:56] <b>DREW:</b> Yeah, I mean, well, I think that I don't think it's just an internet thing by any stretch. I think that the internet has just given them a larger net to cast. It's like, it's not something that's new, right? Like, misogyny is not new. Transphobia is not new. Homophobia is not new. Fatphobia is not new. Like they're all things that exist and have been rife and violent for hundreds of thousands of years. The internet has just given awful men like that a platform and a place like almost like a home to find each other. Like the camaraderie that they find in weaponizing bigotry to harm marginalized people is honestly horrifying. And that's why I started and, you know, attacking them in the first place.</p> <p>But I think when it comes to looks, the reason why I think they jumped to that initially, other than just, you know, a really low IQ, is the fact that they—Misogyny, like, and misogynists in general, the way that they view women and femmes specifically, if we're just operating within a gender binary, right?</p> <p>[00:12:55] <b>KENDALL: </b>Sure.</p> <p>[00:12:56] <b>DREW: </b>The way that they view them is very shallow, right? So they—they think women are stupid and they think women take a lot of—they draw a lot of power and worth from what they look like. And outside of that, how they're perceived by men. So the first thing they say when they're pissed off at you is they insult your looks.</p> <p>They call you fat. They call you ugly. And those are the only two things they ever say ever. It's a thousand variations of that. It's a thousand variations of ugly. And the reason they jumped to that because misogyny tells them, oh, women are vapid and women, you know, care about what they look like. If I tell them they're ugly, that's going to ruin their day.</p> <p>[00:13:30] <b>KENDALL: </b>It’s—Yeah. Ruin their life. Yeah</p> <p>[00:13:34] <b>DREW:</b> Wrong. Exactly. Like, are you kidding fat and ugly? That's the best you can do. Please. You know what I mean? Oh, please, girl. I worked in professional sports for years. Are you kidding me? I dated in college, please. But you think those are the words—They truly think those are the only things that are gonna hurt you because that's all they see women as. Where women are so much more than that. And for me personally, as I continue to unpack my internalized biases. You know, I had to unpack where my validation comes from, like, where does it come from? Does it come from men or does it come from me? And so my internal—even my internal validation does not come from what I look like. My internal validation comes from everything that you cannot see. Right. And it's everything inside of me. So I always tell people, if you take the power from that and you unpack where you get your validation from, that can't hurt you anymore. It takes all the power out of it. You know what I mean?</p> <p>[00:14:27] <b>KENDALL:</b> Absolutely. Absolutely. It's a really good point. Why do you think that this roasting, this like format for you has caught on so well and built the audience that you have? And how has that informed like any kind of content that you want to bring to your audience in the future? Like, did you kind of fall into this? Or was this something that you were like, no, wait, I'm going to be the crusader of all marginalized folks on the internet? Like, how did this happen?</p> <p>[00:14:55] <b>DREW:</b> Honestly, I mean, I definitely fell into it. If I predicted that I was going to do this, I would be a witch for sure. But a lot of my friends, especially for my college years, or even in high school, my family, like extended family, if you talk to them, like, they're always like, “yeah, she's always been that way.”</p> <p>Like, I've always been like—I've terrorized men for a very long time. This is not something new for me, but I think, you know, as far as just like why people resonate with it, I think is because past, past just empowerment and just like drawing strength and courage from like my confidence or working on their own confidence, I think past that it's because I validate them. But not just, you know, and like how hard it is to be a woman, let alone a woman of color, to be fat, to be a person of color in general, to be non-binary, to be gay, to, you know, all of those different intersections. Past that, I validate their anger.</p> <p>Like, they're mad. Like, if you're mad and you're upset because of the way men talk to you and disrespect you, you can be mad. Tell them how mad you are. Like, I truly believe, like, as over the years, like, I've truly found that the main piece that they feel so valid in is their anger. Like, they are tired of having to look the other way. They're tired of having to take the high road. They're tired of having to make excuses and look past this bullshit.</p> <p>Like they're so tired of that. And I'm not someone, like I said, I don't talk. I swing. I don't need to know anything else about you. I don't care. All I know is what you said and what you look like. And I'm going to use those two things to ruin your day. Like that's all I need from you. I don't need much past that. So I think that's a big reason why people resonate so much with it is because I'm not giving them the space to explain themselves. I'm not giving the space to justify it.</p> <p>[00:16:50] <b>KENDALL:</b> I think there's also something about it that's like subverting these kind of feminine expectations.</p> <p>[00:16:55] <b>DREW: </b>Totally.</p> <p>[00:16:56] <b>KENDALL: </b>To be polite.</p> <p>[00:16:57] <b>DREW: </b>Totally.</p> <p>[00:16:58] <b>KENDALL: </b>To be demure, to be soft spoken.</p> <p>[00:17:00] <b>DREW: </b>Yeah, all the adjectives that describe me.</p> <p>[00:17:04] <b>KENDALL: </b>Take up less, take up less space.</p> <p>[00:17:06] <b>DREW: </b>Exactly. Absolutely.</p> <p>[00:17:08] <b>KENDALL: </b>And so to see you fighting back on those expectations I think is also really exciting.</p> <p>[00:17:13] <b>DREW: </b>Thank you.</p> <p>[00:17:14] <b>KENDALL: </b>So, in your recent acceptance speech for your Tastemaker Award, you told the audience that the biggest compliment you got was from a reporter from the Samoan Observer, saying that your laugh and humor are the most Samoan thing about you. Do you agree? Because your laughter has definitely taken on a personality of its own on the internet.</p> <p>[00:17:35] <b>DREW: </b>Yeah. Yeah.</p> <p>[00:17:36] <b>KENDALL: </b>Do you agree with that?</p> <p>[00:17:37] <b>DREW:</b> Yeah, totally. I mean, I've always joked too like when people are so enamored by my laugh. I think that's a wonderful thing. And I think it's also just indicative that they haven't really either hung out with or spent a lot of time with Polynesian people.</p> <p>Like we all cackle. It's not a laugh. It's like a cackle scream kind of thing, and all the people, men, women, and everyone in between in my family all laugh like me, loud as hell, like loud and boisterous and full of life. And that's what I grew up around. So, you know, hearing that from another Samoan person was such a beautiful, like full circle thing to me.</p> <p>As far as my humor goes, like, absolutely. I mean, Samoans love to roast like they love to make fun of everyone and it's all in jest. It's all for sillies and funs, but I got my reps early girl. Like the way like my family makes fun of me, like we make fun of each other. It really builds character in my opinion. And so, you know, hearing that from another Samoan person, obviously in media is such a, it's like I said, a beautiful thing, but it's not exclusive to me. Like the way that we love to laugh and make fun of each other. And also we learned to laugh at ourselves very early. And I did. I did. Thank God. Oh my God. Can you imagine?</p> <p>[00:18:51] <b>KENDALL:</b> What a good quality.</p> <p>[00:18:52] <b>DREW: </b>Yeah. So it's a great thing.</p> <p>[00:18:53] <b>KENDALL:</b> It's a life skill really.</p> <p>[00:18:55] <b>DREW: </b>Yeah, absolutely.</p> <p>[00:18:57] <b>KENDALL:</b> In an interview with Zach Sang, you also said that your Samoan culture did not adhere to a gender binary, but it's through colonization that you were forced to conform to Western standards. How does that history of your people inform your bigger perspective on gender justice, etc., and what you want to bring to others?</p> <p>[00:19:15] <b>DREW:</b> Yeah, I mean, well, first off, it absolutely shoots gender roles in the face, doesn't it? So, like, for me personally, like, my—the genesis of Samoan culture is matriarchal, and it's very, very center. Obviously things have changed, like I said in that interview, because of colonization and the introduction of religion and every organized religion, specifically Eurocentric religion, but it informs me in many different ways, and including in beauty standards, too.</p> <p>So, like, what my people find beautiful is not what Eurocentric beauty standards are, like, not even a little bit. So, you know, it's informed me in so many different ways outside of just gender identity, because including that, like, we never had, there was no gender binary prior. In fact, we have, we have multiple genders outside of, the two that have been forced on all of us.</p> <p>That's something that exists in my culture still to this day. So my perception of myself and my own beauty was formed at a very young age because I've had a very delusional sense of confidence since I could even formulate thoughts. So I've always believed that I was very good looking. I've always felt that about myself.</p> <p>I'm like, you know, I think, I've told people before, I think my culture and my own family, specifically my upbringing was kind of the perfect storm to formulating my brain and why I hold the ideologies that I do and why, you know, just going to college and becoming more educated.</p> <p>[00:20:43] <b>KENDALL:</b> Yeah, big props to the family, props to the culture. Throughout your soon released book, “LOUD,” coming out in July, you touch heavily on your parents' relationship and the rest of your family, influencing not just all of the things about laughter and not taking yourself too seriously, but how you view relationships. And I was wondering how your parents' relationship impacted the way you saw patriarchy, for example?</p> <p>[00:21:10] <b>DREW:</b> Yeah, totally. Well, like I said, you know, both my parents are Samoan. Like, my dad's full, my mom's half. So the way that I was raised was very much so in line with, like, the origins of Samoan culture, like, as far as holding women in very high regard. My dad has always been that way. My parents are high school sweethearts. My parents had my sister and I very young. So the way that we all kind of grew up together, first of all, but what my parents have always demonstrated to me was, you know, that there are no dynamics to be adhered to. It's a partnership. Like you guys are walking in it together. It's equals. Everybody cooks, everybody cleans, everybody makes money, everybody's patient, everybody's kind.</p> <p>It's not something that was like, okay, you do this and I'm going to do this because I'm the man. My dad has never been that way. Like my dad's dream has always been to be a stay at home dad. And, you know, thankfully now I've been able to retire both my parents so they can both be at home and do all those wonderful things.</p> <p>But yeah, it's, it's something that was very prominent to me at a very young age. So I thought to myself, okay, that's what I'm going to, that's what I'm going to hold out for. Like, that's what I want. I want someone who, you know, loves and supports me whether I make more money than them or I don't and whether I'm loud and proud of all the things I believe in or I'm not like I want someone who loves all the parts of me but most importantly supports who I am as a person, right? And doesn't make me shrink or dim my light in order to make him feel better. Thankfully, now I have that, so it works out.</p> <p>[00:22:40] <b>KENDALL:</b> It does work out. Man, it sounds like so much of who you are is what we get to experience on the platform. I mean, I think there's really, that's arguably why you've been so successful.</p> <p>So as you've grown and built this huge following, you've collected a really interesting collective around you. People who, in your audience—who are every type of person. I told you, my white, cisgender, heterosexual, 62 year old father is one of the community. Has this—how have you thought about using your individual experience to move a collective? Like, do you think about that intentionally?</p> <p>[00:23:26] <b>DREW:</b> Yeah, I mean, I feel like my—that's one of the things I'm most proud of when it comes to my platform is that none of my fans look alike. Every single person has a completely different story from the last. And I think that right there is indicative of the one common thread we all have, which is an awful experience with a cis, straight man.</p> <p>Like a whole, every single one of us has that. one common experience, and that's what unites my community. I think all of us understand that my greater mission is to de-center them entirely, and to give you and the audience and every single person that loves my content and follows me, the strength and the courage that you see from me. I want to give that to every single person who loves me. And all of them are seeking it in some capacity. And I think that's why it's been so rewarding to meet fans and see them in real life and read all the testimonies that they send me the few times that I can read them. And it makes it worth it. And I like to think too that I think of myself as like, the building is burning down and I'm holding the door open and that's okay.</p> <p>Everyone run past me, get out. Like, get out girl, get out. Get out of this burning building, it's awful, right? So, if we're burning patriarchy down, I'm holding the door open, everybody get out. I've already done the unpacking, I've done the unlearning and I can take it. Like, I can take insults, I can take harm, I can take all of those threats and everything. I can handle that. But not everybody can, so I'm more than willing, I think, to be a lightning rod for the people who need it the most.</p> <p>[00:25:16] <b>KENDALL:</b> I want to talk about representation, and specifically within the confines of AANHPI Heritage Month. Oftentimes when we are in this month celebrating, the news media and entertainment sometimes forget or overlook the Pacific Islanders or the Native Hawaiians in the acronym and have a hyper focus on Asian Americans, the AA if you will, but your platform has really provided a space where Polynesians have felt so seen and heard.</p> <p>What has been the response directly from your community and what do you hope that the future of representation for Native Hawaiian and Pacific Islanders would be in content creation and entertainment?</p> <p>[00:26:00] <b>DREW:</b> Yeah, I mean, the response has been lovely and amazing. I think, you know, my community, especially like Samoan people specifically, we never get any sort of representation outside of sports. So it's almost always the NFL or WWE Raw, which we love. And I think those are wonderful things. But at the same time, I think, you know, me, having a platform and being known as a Samoan person. I'm not known for being like the biggest and the fastest and the strongest, which is what Samoan people are typically known for, specifically men.</p> <p>I don't underestimate the value that that holds. I feel like, you know, hearing from other Samoan women, especially how much my presence on the platform or presence in media, mainstream media, especially means to them. It like truly makes me so emotional because growing up, I never had that. I never had women who looked like me. I never had women who were built like me, you know, especially not just I'm tall as hell, girl, like I'm six feet. Even something as minute as that is so important. So I think, you know, especially in the moments I've been to, you know, I've met The Rock, obviously we're both Samoan. Even in moments like that, like I've spoken Samoan to him.</p> <p>I spoke Samoan in my acceptance speech with CAPE. Like, platforming our language is huge too, because Samoan is a dying language. So, you know, keeping those kinds of things alive in mainstream media is so important to me. It's something I prioritize. As far as like representation, when it comes to AAPI month, the funny thing about that is when I did grow a platform, I was like, come May, I'm gonna be cleaning house. I'm gonna, pick up every opportunity to talk to anyone because there's none of us like there is no Pacific Islander representation outside of Auliʻi and The Rock like it's just, it’s the three of us look at all of us and we're not even scratching the surface of Pacific Islanders like Pacific Islanders are so much more expansive There's there's Micronesia. There's Melanesia. There's Polynesia. Just within Micronesia alone. There's hundreds of islands and different cultures, dialects, all of that stuff. So I think you know getting the chance to do a lot of different activations or interviews and stuff, especially during May. I always make sure to prioritize my own people because if no one else is good, if I don't do it, nobody will.</p> <p>[00:28:26] <b>KENDALL:</b> That's awesome. Well, that feeds right into my last round of fun questions. The first being, are there creators in the AANHPI community whose feeds you find yourself scrolling through often? This is your time to give them a shout out.</p> <p>[00:28:45] <b>DREW:</b> Oh, geez, Louise. Okay. Well, first, one of the ones I follow is The Coconet, which is not one person specifically, but they're huge in New Zealand. They platform so many different Pacific Islanders, and they platform lots of Micronesian people, Melanesian people as well. I absolutely love their account. I think CAPE is great too. CAPE is a wonderful organization who, like, have really, really tried to platform Pacific Islander people more so, obviously, because, they have lots of representation when it comes to Asian Americans, but when it comes to the PI part, they're still struggling to find more people, and I think it's wonderful of them to prioritize that, especially now, like, they're like, we need more, we need more here.</p> <p>Musicians—So like, even like ones like FIJI is a classic. Iam Tongi, love him. He and I follow each other. He’s Tongan. Who else? The Common Kings. They're great too. These are all just Samoan people that maybe nobody's ever heard of, but you should look into their stuff. They're wonderful and amazing. And dynah.tui [Dynah Tuia'ana] actually, she's on TikTok. So there's so many, so many y’all like, let's all look into it.</p> <p>[00:29:57] <b>KENDALL:</b> You've given us so many people to go through now that, like, I, yeah, we are, we've been gifted with a bounty of folks to go check out,</p> <p>[00:30:05] <b>DREW: </b>Beautiful.</p> <p>[00:30:06] <b>KENDALL: </b>So thank you for that. The next question is going to utilize your most notable form: roasting. At the ACLU, you might know that we are currently struggling to fight against anti-abortion folks, anti-trans folks. How would you roast this kind of gender discrimination and bigotry and do you potentially want to try it for us?</p> <p>[00:30:28] <b>DREW:</b> Yeah, I think, okay, well first I would say the most important one is If you didn't hate yourself so severely, you wouldn't be super worried about what other people are doing. Specifically, anyone with a uterus in their body, or trans people. And I think specifically trans people, they ignite this very visceral and violent hatred in bigots, and I think more than anything, it has to do with how they feel about themselves, obviously, but it's more so like they see someone who they've been taught to believe should hate themselves and should be miserable and unhappy and should conform in order to be happy.</p> <p>When they have—they grow up with this ideology and they walk in it and they believe it like, so severely. When they see trans people who are in love, right, who are successful, who are happy, who are glowing, who are making a difference. When they see trans people living their life and you know, being themselves, they—it almost like triggers this like disbelief. And if you weren't so unhappy and you weren't so unfulfilled by your mediocre life, you wouldn't find power in looking for things to drag down marginalized groups. But that's never going to stop them. And that's the most important part is like, bigotry is not new. And like, we're not new to this. We're true to this. And we're going to keep pushing and we're going to keep supporting each other.</p> <p>[00:31:51] <b>KENDALL:</b> So if you could suggest an unserious solution for curbing hate online, what would you, what would, what would an unserious suggestion be?</p> <p>[00:32:01] <b>DREW:</b> Oh, that's easy. I wouldn't give any cis, straight man no access to Wi-Fi. I want to do a background check first. Imma—a background check. It's kind of like a background check. I want to interview your mom, I want to interview any girl you've ever interacted with. I'm gonna ask them first and then I'll let you know if you deserve Wi-Fi. That's what my thing would be, not even a phone, just Wi-Fi like we're going back to the Nokia brick days like I'm giving you a house phone.</p> <p>If you're awful, house phone it is. Use that to contact your loved ones. That's what I would do. I'd give them like a, literally like, if you're applying for the FBI or something, I'm gonna do a background check on you first. I'm gonna need three letters of recommendation from three women that you know, and then I'll decide. And I'm the one who decides. Me. I get to decide if you have Wi-Fi.</p> <p>[00:32:49] <b>KENDALL:</b> I was going to say, do you need—did you just create like a million jobs for other people?</p> <p>[00:32:54] <b>DREW:</b>Exactly.</p> <p>[00:32:56] <b>KENDALL: </b>Like, are you the new jobs creator in the United States?</p> <p>[00:32:58] <b>DREW:</b> Exactly. I'm going to start—I'm going to start an Indeed equivalent, which a lot of those men need to get on Indeed anyways. I'm going to start a LinkedIn and I'm going to say, everyone, come on here. Let's all source together. Let's all go through the resumes. Do it together. Mm hmm.</p> <p>[00:33:11] <b>KENDALL:</b> I love that. I think that is hilarious and also lovely and unserious, I should emphasize. Okay. And finally, I just want you to shout out your projects. Where can we support you and what you're building and what you're envisioning from here?</p> <p>[00:33:29] <b>DREW:</b> Totally. Thank you. Well, I have two podcasts. I have my Spotify exclusive one called The Comment Section, which is super great. It's video exclusive, so you can watch the video only on Spotify, but you can stream it anywhere.</p> <p>And then I have another podcast with my sister, Deison Afualo called Two Idiot Girls, which you can also stream everywhere. And obviously you can follow me on socials, Drew Afualo at everything. And then last, but certainly not least, my biggest one to date, my book “LOUD” comes out July 30th. Which is very exciting. So yeah, please go get my book. If you think I'm annoying now, just wait till you read the book. Just kidding. I think you're gonna really enjoy the book. I hope everyone does.</p> <p>[00:34:11] <b>KENDALL: </b>What a pitch.</p> <p>[00:34:12] <b>DREW: </b>Yeah. Yeah. You want to hear more?</p> <p>[00:34:15] <b>KENDALL:</b> What a pitch. Yeah.</p> <p>[00:34:16] <b>DREW:</b> Get into it, girl. So, yeah. But thank you so much for having me. This has been great.</p> <p>[00:34:20] <b>KENDALL:</b> Yeah. Thanks so much, Drew. This was so fun. I don't think I've ever laughed this hard in a singular interview. I've been doing this for like four and a half years. Yeah, you really take the cake. Thank you so much for doing this. We really appreciate all the work that you do and your time.</p> <p>[00:34:40] <b>DREW:</b> Thank you so much. And I appreciate y'all and I follow ACLU on everything. Love y'all. The best.</p> <p>[00:34:46] <b>KENDALL:</b> We love it. We love it.</p> <p>Thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to At Liberty wherever you get your podcasts and rate and review the show. We really appreciate the feedback. At Liberty is a production of the ACLU, produced by me, Kendall Ciesemier, and Vanessa Handy. This episode was edited by the good folks at Ultraviolet Audio.</p> <p>Genesis Magpayo is our intern.</p> " > Play Transcript

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May is Asian American Native Hawaiian Pacific Islander Month and we’re celebrating with a guest that is sure to make you laugh hard. You might even recognize her infectious laugh from her viral videos on TikTok.

Drew Afualo is one of today’s most popular feminist content creators. Her no-BS approach to roasting misogynistic men on the internet has been met with folks flocking to her social pages to feel seen, heard and to rally around squelching hate, bigotry and misogyny. Her mission to stand up for the most marginalized among us is why she’s one of Time Magazine’s Next Generation Leaders, and that’s not all. This March, the Coalition of Asian Pacifics in Entertainment honored Drew with the Tastemaker Award. She’s a content creator, women’s rights advocate, podcast host, and author of the forthcoming book “LOUD: Accept Nothing Less Than the Life You Deserve.”

Drew joins us today to discuss her journey to TikTok, Samoan identity, and the way comedy and culture have built a meaningful community online primed not just for likes, but also for action. Simply put: Drew is using her voice and in the process, helping all of us find our own.

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